Podcast Episode 10: Certainty Amongst Uncertainty

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Let’s talk family enterprise explores global ideas, concepts and models that help family enterprise advisors better serve their family clients, brought to you by the family enterprise exchange.

0:19
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The let’s talk family enterprise podcast. My name is Steve Legler and I’m excited to be your guest host once again. Today we’re gonna be talking about the new reality we’ve all been thrust into lately. And how it is affecting family businesses and possibly more importantly for our audience how it is affecting the advisors who serve these families. Our guest today is Peter Vaughn and FDA designate himself who’s based in Vancouver, where he works as a therapist for couples and families. Along with the work he does advising business families. We thought that the way the COVID 19 pandemic has quickly changed all of our lives recently. It made sense to deal with this issue right now, rather than some of the family business as usual topics which we’ll try to get back to next month. We’ve got some interesting things to cover today. So let’s say hi to Peter and kick this off. Peter, thanks for joining us today and welcome to the let’s talk family enterprise podcast.

1:21
Steve, thank you very much. I’m really looking forward to it and intrigued by these times as you are and where we’ll take our conversation today.

1:32
Awesome. You sent me some notes that are things we could talk about and right off the top you’ve got work and home life balance. So what are some of the important ideas we should be thinking about around that topic?

1:47
Well, you know when it came to me when I was thinking about our talk today, amidst all the COVID-19 uncertainties, one thing really does appear to be certain, and that is that we’re spending so much more time in our homes. And you know, this fact alone I think has changed so much for each of us, but however when I think of FPGAs and I was excited to hear from you the other day that there’s 400 of us now across the country. I think this circumstance has given us a powerful glimpse into the world of our family enterprise clients. And yeah, though, work home life balance. Absolutely is is one of those fascinating problems. It’s also very common for our family clients. Not so common for us perhaps because we’ve been working out it the first half of our career, everything kind of goes to hell in a handbasket. The second half of our careers we work very hard at work home life balance, but right now with us in the homes. I don’t think we have the luxury that we used to have so distinctly separating work from family life, as it’s like to me like all the rules that we’re pretty good at. They all now have to be renegotiated. And it’s that renegotiation that I’m just fascinating as a problem a problem that I’m experiencing now because I’m in my home and Gibsons BC instead of in my office or my clients homes in West Vancouver where most much of my practice occurs. I’m now thinking about Gee, what is work and what is home and what is the right balance.

3:15
So you’ve got the internal balance of your own stuff, and then you have the boundaries with other people. And renegotiating the rules. So that’s that’s the sort of not stepping on each other’s toes aspect of it. Is that what you’re talking about? Well, I

3:32
didn’t really primarily for me, it’s like when is the end of my workday? Just that basic question. You know, are there any boundaries around my my client context? He used to have that on the bag? Like what are what are what are my priorities around self care, like no longer going to the gym, that’s for sure. You know, can’t leave the house basically. The gym is closed. Yeah, exactly. And then what are the boundaries around talking in the home about money and cash flow and, like it all has flown together? You know, so I think Ray, you know, with that kind of problem, we better turn it into an opportunity. So what I’ve been quite actively doing with myself and my significant other is we’ve been reevaluating in a way reaffirming what’s most important in our lives. That’s that’s the thing that I think well, we can do that right now. Other FTAs can do that they have to do it our family. Clients are perhaps doing that also, like reaffirming what’s really important in life right now. And it seems to me that this is this thrust of being in the same home in a very unusual way to professionals locked in the home together, perhaps our you know, our adult children, you know, coming back from Final terms of university back into the home and a different kind of way. For some of us, our parents, significant others mother is not moving in, but we really thought about that. Will she move in, you know, all that thrust together now. So all the boundaries between what we used to do on our own and what we’re now doing either in front of our or even with significant others. It’s a radical opportunity.

5:09
So so we’re all being many of us are being thrust into new situations that are unusual or unfamiliar. And we can either sort of not talk about it and just try to deal with it or we can take the opportunity that now it’s there, and it’s happening, so we may as well talk about it. And then you talk that you mentioned really quickly about the fact that we’re maybe even getting a chance and a glimpse into some of our clients who are in family businesses, where they’re more used to this, you know, jumble of family and business altogether and working closely with family members more than most are used to it. Now we’re kind of getting a taste of it. Is that part of what we can see as part of the opportunity here?

5:58
So I think I think that’s fantastic. You know, because we’ve been preaching a message regarding the work home life balance, and we’ve been talking to our clients about you know, they never have a family dinner without business topics taking over. And now we’re never having a lunch without you know, business topics taken over. Breakfast without it. So now we can actually stand with them and say, gee, you know, this is easier to say than Do you know, can we actually practice what we’ve been preaching? And I actually believe that our practices will be much more effective, and perhaps much more humble. When we step back into meeting face to face with our clients before we go, Hey, guys, this balance that yours is way out of whack. We can now go, Hey, we get it when you’re thrust together with family. And when work is integrated into that it is much much harder to pull the two apart. So I think there’s a gift in understanding there’s a gift in humility is a gift and now that we’re going to be practicing what we’re preaching. So even our tools related to that how we solve the problem now, while we’re in our self isolation stages of this whole COVID-19 or social distance, how we solve the problem in what what wisdom can we now pass on to our client families from a new perspective as learners now rather than as teachers?

7:16
So yeah, we’ll be able to hopefully learn things ourselves that we can share with others and or learn how challenging our clients have had it all along and have an expressed an appreciation to them about what they’ve been going through and hopefully we can all learn things together.

7:39
I think absolutely. That’s a cool idea, right? Because we thought we were able to speak from theory now. We have to speak from experience on this. Last thought we had it in a wrap. Now we’re having done wrap it and look at it again.

7:54
What and we almost Yeah, and we have no choice but to do it because we’re living it like every day and we probably will. Just a note here we’re recording this on Friday, March 27. This probably won’t go out for at least another couple of weeks. And I imagine a lot of us are still going to be in lockdown. And you know, we you and I are talking about it and it’s still something that’s kind of new and and we’re talking about it as wow there’s some cool stuff to learn. I don’t know if in two weeks I’m still gonna feel the same way about it. And the people listening to this might think oh, they sounded like you know, this was pretty cool so far, but Biden is

8:33
exactly so look us up in a month. Hey, yeah. Thanks. Yeah, if you can find me. I’ll be under the bed somewhere. Probably.

8:44
You mentioned communication erodes, when primary needs are triggered. Can you expand a little bit on that? I found that intriguing. What are these primary needs that are being triggered? What are you talking about there?

8:59
Yeah. So now if you like if we switch to marriage and family seems in particular, but in essence we are many, many people and many philosophers may many religious writers, many psychological writers have have suggested that really, we only have two primary needs that are driving us all human. One is the need for a sense of security, that someone has their back or that that basic survival if needs are being provided for so need number one security. Okay? There’s a need for significance, the ability to make a difference in our world to be able to step out and use our talent use our capacities to make a difference in the show, they show up all over the place. So you can imagine though, if those primary needs are being threatened. Well, obviously the need for security has been threatened all the way right down to the bones of financial security, and obviously our capacity to make a difference. In the world in ways that we’re used to, is also been hampered. So when when that happens when these two drivers are under attack, if you like, then communication so very easily erodes with with everyone but I’m thinking particularly now with significant other with with our spouses with our children, were their family relations. Now think family enterprise they’re dealing with this day. That communication becomes much more filled with the potential of defensiveness and perceived criticism. And there’s been a lot of work done on that in our therapy field and in our family enterprise failed that those are the those are the bread and butters of bad communication, perceived criticism and defensiveness. So that’s when it starts to erode when primary needs are being triggered. And those primary needs are being profoundly triggered right now, for each of us. Security needs and our ability to make a difference in the world. So as a result, you know, our marriages are basically under a lot more stress and pressure and a relationship with our loved ones.

10:56
The the significance what I mean I think the security one is hitting most people in more or less the same way in that we’re all worried about maybe getting sick and a lot most people are worried about their cash flow or their their ability to earn. But the significance one, I think is hitting different people in different ways. So here’s what I’m talking about. I think there’s a lot of people who in the last few weeks, but had enough hours in the day to do what they need to do because their job or their role has now become all shaken up but still important. So there’s a lot of people in whether they’re in the you know, they’re working in the hospital, or they’re having to reorganize some essential service and they are being run ragged. And at the other end, there’s a whole bunch of people who are now sitting around twiddling their proverbial thumbs trying to figure out like, how can they contribute? How can they be significant? And it’s gonna take a while still, for that to even back out to even out again, to where there’s some semblance of normal illness is that another potential stressor if you have two people in a in a, let’s say, in a marriage, where one of them is all of a sudden, going crazy, and the other one sitting there with his feet up wondering what to do next?

12:23
Yeah, so really, that was an intriguing insight, Steve, if I if I just amplify that a little bit. In essence, if we put making a difference in the world, well, an important driver for all of us. It’s one of the two primary needs, from baby to death. We all feel that need to express in a variety of ways you’re saying it’s been pushed to the extremes. Both ends are the extremes we have. We have people you know, it was so much on their plate, that their capacity to actually move the ball down the field. Is being overwhelmed by the COVID-19 changing circumstance. And they’re they’re frustrated stressed and Max the difference they go to the other end of the extreme. Hey, I can’t go to work now. And and work only happens when I’m at work in my workplace. Can’t do it remote. can’t Can’t. Can’t do it from home. And absolutely they’re sitting around with like all dressed up and no place to go. And you think about that I mean, which is which is the worst circumstance to be to be bored or to be completely overtaxed. I was talking also, you know, to to a top end medical practitioner at St. Paul’s one of our local hospitals, downtown hospitals, and he said he hit it right in the button. He said he has never This is a guy that has been practicing medicine for for 25 years saving lives for 25 years. He has never experienced the tremendous course through his blood of meaning and opportunity to touch people’s lives. He is just running on a high now of course he’s in that first month of it. Right? Right. And indeed the system has not been overwhelmed at this point. And we all looked at, you know, to other countries and think well, let’s check in on a month whether he’s still feeling that tremendous opportunity. So right now he might be just on the cusp. Maybe you’ve caught up in a month and he’s going to be on that far end or the other right of the spectrum. Right? You

14:11
can run on that adrenaline high for a while but not not forever. And so while he’s going through that, other people are you know, trying to find a way to be useful.

14:26
So yeah, I think I think that illustration of what if one’s 101 husband’s at one end of the wife said the other end or vice versa, that with my significant other, she’s always done her practice online. A major part and for me online practice. Rather than face to face online. It’s been about, you know, maybe 10% of my my my practice. And what I’m grateful for is the most people have ever been shifted to recognizing that simply reality that if we’re going to have some some contact or they’re in the FE world or in the therapy world, it’s going to be online. So I found myself my practice relatively relatively stable, but that’s a very unusual circumstance. I think most of us are either overwhelmed in their practice or underwhelmed, and neither is a happy place for sure.

15:14
So what’s the opportunity or what are what are we what should we be trying to do to make sure that we have get some of the positives out of these changes? And not only the negatives you talk about important conversations to talk about things other than the COVID-19? How can that be? Or how do people manage to even do that turn off the CNN and not watch and talk about the important things?

15:46
Well, you know, when I think of the opportunity, I first think of the problem, because we actually it’s much harder right now. To ignore the irritating habits of the people that we live with. When we were able to go to nine to five or eight to six somewhere else and come back, you know, and our significant other or adult kid or high school kid, you know, their irritating habits we can at least say well, I don’t have to deal with this all day long. And it was also easier for us to hurt to read or to hide our irritating habits. So we were less of an irritation. So bottom line, incompatibilities in the way we’re moving through life. They, they were hidden from us, we weren’t bumping into them all the time. Now they’re totally in our face. And I’m pretty strong on the idea that incompatibilities are inevitable. All the research lines up on that that incompatibilities in family relations, and in marital relations are completely impossible to avoid, indeed the best research in the world says that all couples are significantly incompatible. And if that’s the case, he’s just thinking that Steve, what we’ve been able to do is hide from that reality and now we can no longer do it. So the opportunity for me is actually talking about conversation. Because a lot of research again that when we open our mouth with a significant other we do one of three things automatically. We criticize, we defend, or we share, bottom line ABC criticize, defend or share. So the only way through incompatibilities is to avoid the criticism. Avoid the defensiveness and actually share. So quite frankly, what I’ve been pushing into with my significant other is sharing about what it’s like to live in such close quarters with much less breathing room with someone who’s actually quite incompatible with me, who I love very much and we have a lovely life together because we’ve got a ton of compatibilities but it’s the incompatibilities, one or two that sink the ship. So it’s like what are we going to do with our incompatibilities regarding how we use time or inclination to have space differently? So it was in my case that some need more contact some need more personal space? What are we going to do with that basic incompatibility? I think it’s a fantastic chance to explore incompatibilities and find solutions that are honoring to a to both of

18:08
us. I love that those three things that criticize, defend and share and you know you enumerate them as if they’re three completely separate and distinct things. And I wonder if I mean, clearly, sharing is is the way to go to sort of minimize the incompatibilities and hopefully, capitalize on the compatibilities but you need to be able to share in a way that isn’t critical or defensive. And I think that’s the trick, the hard part and where we might need to practice a little bit more is in sharing in a straightforward non judgmental way and the good news is we’re gonna have lots of opportunities to practice it.

18:58
It’s an opportunity to practice Yeah, no one

19:01
is is open to it. Not everyone is good at learning it but practice is something that can hopefully help and maybe, maybe even if only one person can demonstrate it and model it, that the others can Is there a chance that if one person can can do it that the others will sort of learn by example and catch on to the benefits of it?

19:25
Well, then the asset you see, one would think that they all flow together but but but watch it occur in the conversations that I’ve been coaching with my family enterprise clients, it’s actually very, very clear when we move from sharing to to perceived criticism, and then hear that word proceed because the feedback system is immediate. The feedback system is the person we’re talking to. And if we sensed defensiveness, then we can guarantee right now that we’ve been perceived as criticism. The only reason for the wall of defensiveness is a perception that somehow we’ve been called short. Or somehow we’re calling her family member. We’re short on something. Somehow we’re pointing out a deficit. Somehow we’re pointing out a disappointment. So we get that feedback right away. As soon as we get that feedback. That’s a chance to do a redo because again, there’s some fantastic research on this one. And we know now without a doubt that the first three minutes have a problem solving conversation with a loved one. Not necessarily with an with a with a more casual relationship, but with a loved one predicts outcome with 96% accuracy, I think, so that that startup have perceived criticism and defensiveness and finding that way around that finding the antidotes around that and there’s lots of skills that we can practice right now. But actually, they’re probably the very same skills that we’ve been preaching. Now we get to try it in close quarters with someone that we are bumping into incompatibilities with, even though we love them, even though they’re tremendous, even though we share so much. It’s what are we going to do and how are we going to address how are we going to find solutions that are honoring to both of us? In time spent in money spent in the things we want to watch on our screens in the foods we want to eat now because we’re having all three meals together. It’s just it’s just a long list of potential gee whiz. It was easier living with you when I didn’t have to live with you

21:17
at least not so it’s such an intense constant and never ending Wait, I got it I got to stop you and go back to this three minutes thing because because it actually I don’t know if it’s just the way my crazy mind works, but it also it gave me this idea that there’s like hope there that if I can just managed to get through the first three minutes without being critical or defensive and just do the sharing with the right attitude that the chances of this going well have gone up enormously. Am I Am I oversimplifying this.

21:51
No, no, no, you’re actually not oversimplifying. The the social scientists that dug into this from the government is to do that’s exactly what they did. They put on their stopwatch. They looked at the first three minutes. They looked at the positivity of those first three minutes, and they made a prediction regarding the outcome being good and 96% of the time they were right. They had a crappy first three minutes 96% of the time it went bad. So indeed, that infusion of and now we’ve discovered what is the infusion of what the social scientists would call positive effect and what positive effect is good feelings.

22:27
This is you know, if nothing else, comes of this podcast that just even if no one ever listens to it, this thing, this three minute thing is gonna stay with me. And I hope I can I can prove that the Get that 96 up to 99% because that’d be awesome. Anyone can hold it together for three minutes, can’t they?

22:52
Well, you know, here’s my problem. I have a hard time with like, I’ve been learning this stuff for a long time. I’ve been teaching and preaching this stuff for a long time. I have a hard time with the three minutes, especially if I allow a buildup and I come to the table and I just go you know, this just ain’t gonna work for me anymore. Something’s got to change here. You’re like way off the mark here. And then I tried to backpedal and introduce after three minutes I tried to go against this that and think, Well, I’m kind of cooked now I want to be in one of the 4% That actually turned a bad three minutes into into a good conversation. And believe it or not, there are some effective ways of doing that. repair efforts if you like, Oh, let me back to positive effect, which is the thing I’m excited about. And again, these guys are analyzing the videotapes if you like, you know second by second what they actually discovered is in the most successful communication with family members, if they actually measured good moments to bad moments during conflict. Here’s a crazy one. Here’s the bar set so I this is actually observational. This is not theory isn’t just watching family members do it. The ratio is five positive moments to one negative moment during conflict resolution.

24:05
You’ve got to you’ve got to do or say five good things before you can get away with one bad thing because otherwise it’s going to wipe up wipe out all the goodwill. Well, yeah,

24:17
that would be too much to ask that we that we will be working at them forever. They then they say well, how do you measure? Good thing? That’s the key question. How do you measure a good thing? And these guys because they’re looking at second by second they say Look at her eyes right now. See how they softened or look at the nodding of the head are looking at let’s just listen to comment when they say yeah, you made a good point. I disagree with six things you said but I really agree with this or say, you know, Damn, you’re smart. You know, I love the way you argue. In other words, these are the good moments. These are the positive feelings that get infused into the potential difficult conversation that changed the outcome. So you’re talking

24:59
about scientists watching things on tape, and they’re trained to observe this but how do we when I’m having a discussion with my wife? How do I learn to be watching for the cues that maybe I’ve going down a road that I shouldn’t be and how do I sort of what am I mean I suppose after 27 years of marriage, I should know the answer this question but what might I be looking at

25:26
looking so so your partner’s name if I may ask, Julie. Okay, so all we got to do is we just got a wire Julie into this conversation right now and say, Julie, what are the signs that you’re giving Steve, that his conversations not working out well for you, and she’ll be able to describe them very, very clearly. I guarantee that.

25:46
You’re as you’re right. Know them by now. But

25:53
yeah, even if we can’t describe them, we know them. That’s what that’s what the real science of it is. We know that inherently whether this is a friendly moment or an unfriendly moment, we’re trained from babyhood to death to no friendly from unfriendly to know when the guard is necessary and when it’s not. And I think even the effort even the declared effort, hey, I want this to be a friendly conversation. Hey, I respect you and this is a hard conversation to enter into. I think we need to, but I just want that respect. To come across even declaring the goodwill upfront with words. You know, not rocket science, you know, hey, I’ve got a buildup of steam here and I’m kind of I’m really annoyed. But I want you to know that that I’m sure we can get through this and and I respect your tremendous amount. I’m still mad. You know, goodwill, with intentionality is easy to put into it. No, no, I’m thinking we have, you know, we have this pressure on us. Does that mean that the guidelines for good communication don’t work? I think no, absolutely the opposite way. Now we get to see the guidelines work when we’re living in this fishbowl and I think that’s the opportunity not to lose it, but to gain it.

27:03
So these things are actually more important than ever. And the opportunities that we all are going to have are already having to practice these things. Can actually if we’re you know, smart enough to learn from them, can stand us in good stead long term in our own lives and in our practices as we deal with with business families.

27:28
And maybe it’s the great equalizer, right? Maybe now the you know, the founder is is doing the dishes at home, because their their help is in in quarantine. And it’s a great equalizer in conversations. It’s no longer these roles that have defined us in terms of, you know, hierarchy. We’re kind of all in there together. The founder is now responsible for what comes out of his or her mouth just as much as cheese three is it’s the great equalizer in relationship. We get to really get a mirror to look at ourselves if we can if we’re brave enough to look at it. So that’s why we want to do

28:05
the old rules, the old rules of what we’ve been used to the same old same old or have been have been shaken up and are continuing to shake and we don’t know what they’re going to look like in the end because we’re right in the middle of it still. But as much as there is you know, what is it that in Chinese the word crisis and the word for opportunity is the same word or something like that. So yes, indeed, God, we’ve got a chance here to do some really good stuff, if we’re prepared to seize it.

28:37
Yes, I deeply believe that, you know, and certainly one of the things that I’ve been thinking about too is this is like where does Okay, so we’ve been talking a lot about where do our relationships go? Where does the work home life balance COVID I’m going where does my brain go? Where does my heart go during a time like this? Because they are anxious times. And if we if we think the first goal of anxiety anxiety is to alert us anxiety is our friend. But then I go well, how much is my anxiety alerting me? And can I actually distinguish between helpful anxiety and unhelpful anxiety? Because if we all have this basic sort of fight flight thing that happens when we get anxious, boy we have just a ton of opportunity to to be over engaged in worries. And I think you know, if people come in sort of two different types, we’re either going to head towards depression or we’re going to head towards anxiety. I think, well, where’s my brain go and my brain would head towards anxiety. What can I do? You know, and I don’t like feeling out of control. And most of the high functioning family enterprise clients, we know we don’t like they don’t like feeling out of control is a whole bunch of out of control here. So for me, it’s like it’s a glimpse into my basic survival mechanisms that I’m running into. And I go well, this is for the brave of us and I want to be one of the brave even though I’m obviously not always I want to be able to evaluate the lens through which I look at this world. And if there’s an opportunity for me to do that, there’s an opportunity for the other FPGAs. To do that. There is an opportunity for us to take this to our back to our family enterprise clients and say, what did we learn about the lens through which we see the world? How much of it is, is fear based response? How much of it is, is opportunity based? How much do we allow the hardship to dishearten us and take that energy away from us that we actually need to face the problems? How much do we become kind of manic and going around chasing our tail? It’s just a tremendous opportunity to look at where we put our energy, like inside our brains, you know, as we’re falling asleep as we’re waking up, as as we can no longer overcome the problem because it’s outside our control.

30:47
I think that word learning that I jotted down while you were saying that is possibly the biggest key to this whole thing is that if we look at this whole situation and our place in it, and what can we learn about ourselves, and what can we learn that we can use to teach our clients after we’ve learned it? I think that is a real part of you know, having the right attitude towards this and what you mentioned about, you know, business people that we deal with, that really like to be in control and now they’re not. There’s so many things that are out of their control. And what an uncomfortable situation. This is for so many of them. And if we can approach them somewhere down the road, and bring them to this area of learning and ask them and help them to try to learn and look at what they can learn from all this. I think we have a chance to do some, some useful helping of these people that maybe other people are looking at more, you know, solving the day to day brisk business problems. But in terms of we always want to be the most trusted adviser to these to these business people. I think by taking them down to this kind of road, we have a chance to do something that’s a little bit different, and probably more useful and more memorable for them.

32:14
I think so can you imagine when this thing clears up and we can actually meet face to face if we locked yourself in for a day with our client families, and said, Let’s talk about the most important things that emerged from here. We’re all talking about being lifelong learners. What did we learn at 64? What did what I learned at 64? What do you learn in it? 30 from this, and I think it’s going to work come back to those primary needs from my point of view because we all have the two basics, the need for security and the need for making a difference. I’d love to dig deep into into those two primary needs and how this circumstance provoked them, and how they provide an opportunity for something that we could not see before and how we can now take that and move forward with basic stuff like, you know, the basic question of, you know, how much money do we need? How much money do we need to make, in order to be truly happy and fulfilled because money has been deeply disrupted by this process? All of our lifestyles? How much do I need to eat out? How much do I need? To vacation? What sort of car do I need? Basic stuff around lifestyle and money.

33:23
And what an opportunity also just a few think about speaking with two different generations of a family after this is over and asking dad who’s 60 and the son who’s 32, what they each learned, and to have them share that together. And what an opportunity that is for us to have really important conversations and then to have some learnings that come come out of all of what we’re going through. So let’s try to look at all the positives of all this. And our time is running short as it always does. And so this has been really interesting and enlightening and we’re getting to the end. I’ve got a couple of questions that because we always want to try to end these podcasts in a kind of a similar way. So I want to ask you for one book recommendation, hopefully something you’ve read that really helped you somewhere along the line in your career working with families. And then the last thing will be one piece of advice from an advisor to other advisors. So can we start with with a book recommendation

34:30
Yeah, Thanks for Thanks for warning me about that because I went back to a book that I haven’t read for awhile. So John Gottman, I’ve made reference to him. He is is North America’s primary researcher in romantic relationship marriage, but he’s written 40 books, and when he wrote a while ago and I’d love to know how extends up according to current science is a book called the relationship cure. It’s the thing that made it fascinating for me is John bunk, roped into the work of Jack Panksepp, who’s a Scandinavian neuroscientist, who is the guy that actually did the early research on animals having a sense of humor, mammals laughing. So he’s the guy that discovered how rats laugh, for example, if your work just really funny, but we’re Jack Panksepp got that model from it’s the whole question of emotional command systems in our brain, where we all actually have these emotional drivers. We have we have seven drivers, each of us have seven drivers. I won’t review them all now right now, but the book digs deep into those seven neurologically based drivers. of behavior and how it affects our relationships. And the thing I love about this book and I’ve done a number of workshops using this material is God these fantastic questionnaires I don’t know about you, but I love questionnaires so we can do. We can do all these great questionnaires we can actually discover our brains emotional command systems. Whether we’re an explorer, whether we’re Ness builder, or Jester. So he said, Well, you know, even dolphins are jesters, even rats and cats. You know, here’s how dogs laugh, you know? So he’s looking at mammals and so we can learn about our cat and our dog and our well in our dolphin if we happen to have one in ourselves. In our relationships at home at work that’s the great thing about this book is not just about home relationships about work relationships. So

36:24
the book is called the relationship cure by John Gottman.

36:29
John Gottman Yeah, okay. Can I think he

36:33
will put the info and some links on the Show page for this? Thank you for that. And so the one piece of advice from an advisor to other advisors

36:42
Yes, well, that’s that’s a humbling thought in itself. So I’m not sure I have something breathtakingly new but the thing I’m getting out of this is is practice what we preach. And this is an opportunity to get a glimpse into some of the challenges that we’ve been helping our family enterprise clients with, and now we’re facing them, the anxieties and the fears in the making a difference. Basically, the challenges we’re having to those two primary needs we’re being invited to grow right now as people, as wives and husbands, as as parents. We’re being invited to grow. And I’m just very confident that if we embrace that opportunity, that our advising to our clients will be greatly enriched as we now stand with them. As lifelong learners during perhaps the most difficult times that we’ll face for for many decades. We don’t know that yet.

37:37
Yeah, and if we can learn to understand ourselves better, we’ll be better equipped to deal with and help our clients as well. And that’s what I believe. Peter, this wonderful this flew by really quickly. Thanks again so much for joining us and sharing your expertise and, and your your wonderful thoughts. That thought provoking with our audience now.

38:01
Thank you, Steve. listeners. If

38:02
you haven’t already subscribed, please do so. Make sure that you never miss any of these monthly episodes. And so thanks again for joining us on The let’s talk family enterprise podcast. Hi, Steve Legler.

38:21
If you enjoyed today’s episode, you can subscribe to us on iTunes or any other podcast apps. And don’t forget to share this podcast with family friends and colleagues. If you have feedback on this content or suggestions for future episodes, please email us at F E F family dash enterprise dash x change.com. We’d love to hear from you.

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